Talk:Fish
From Comparative Physiology of Vision
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Comments by Mike
Looks great folks. Here are a few general comments and things you might want to address. I apologize in advance if you mentioned them already and I overlooked them.
I really like the accessibility of the wikipage. Easy to understand. The moken children workshop probably helps with this (flattened corneas etc that fish have) Love the pacu video. Thats the good news. the bad news is that i am very interested in fish vision so i have a lot of things that i am curious about. here they are:
Have you found the Anapbleps a caribbean fish, with double retinas and double irises?
Interesting to think about surface water fish and deep water fish in terms of various wavelengths of light being excluded by the water. I like to fish, and if any of you have shopped for fishing lures, then you must be asking yourself about why certain lures have certain colors. i would love to see more about it! For example, I might think that freshwater fish that live and predate near the surface might have their spectral sensitivity of their opsins shifted to longer wavelengths compared to ocean fish in deeper waters????? Have you guys ever seen Jaws or shark documentaries? Ever noticed that the blood under water doesn't look red! Why? Have you ever looked at fish under water and then pulled them into the boat after you catch them and they look a different color? The amount of water will filter out certain wavelengths, so fish may adapt to this with different color perceptions...and therefore also coloration of their scales! Think about the reds in salmon when they spawn...or bright yellow butterfly fish contrasting with short wavelength blues of the deeper ocean...etc. think about all of the unusual colors in tropical fish. what are they signaling to each other, giving us clues to fish visual perception?? Pattern recognition must be pretty amazing for fish...as well as shadows from predators above.
guppies: some have more color cones at the top of the eye, thats why the males always swim slightly above them during mating?
salmon: born in streams then go to the ocean, then come back in two years. do they change the proportion of different opsins (porphyropsin versus rhodopsin)??
On demand camouflage? How do they do it? (might want to look at the cephalopod wiki)
might also want to discuss underwater glare. retinomotor responses, light and dark adaption, etc. they use screening pigments. Could this be why fish(particularly predatory fish)rise to feed at twilight?? (again...anyone of you fish???). what about the role of iridescent corneas and glare reduction?
what about bottom fish and spectacles (an additional covering of the cornea) that can filter out light?
archer fish are really cool...they shoot water at flying insects to eat them...how the heck do they do that? they must have pretty good vision! any more info?
flounders are pretty cool. might want to discuss more about crazy their eye location is and what controls it in development???
I think brown trout also have some unique vision aspects.
sharks: far sighted? blind spots in hammer head sharks?
deep sea fish: tubular eyes? double retinas? no cones? chyropsin (a short wavelength sensitive opsin)? explain!
bioluminescence is also interesting. luciferase bacteria. this is like a deep sea fish version of using colors to attract other fish.
Discussion
I would feel fine doing some work on Chichlids, it dose not really matter what i study, but i agree that we should break down our general topics among the group for specific research -seth
Transduction (Work in progress) needs some help, hoping Mike's lectures help us figure this out Bawphi17 21:56, 28 November 2011 (PST)
End of Project
I have been focusing my research on motion detection and neuronal processing because they appear to be the least edited. I have been saving all of my work in a word document for now. Are there other areas of the wiki of which anybody would like someone to help? Let us all know!
Another thing, did anybody respond to Trevor about the idea of researching about a specific fish? I was under the impression that we could research the optics of a specific species of fish, but thought it would be more efficient, collaborative, and concise to generalize about fish optics, using examples found in the research. What do y'all think?
Also, I think all of us should collaborate to compile the questions or individually come up with our own and then narrow the list down to 3 questions as a group. Very soon.
Gomezm 18:00, 27 November 2011 (PST)
- I'll be looking at the project again tonight after studying for physiology Bawphi17 12:54, 3 December 2011 (PST)
- I want to get stuff about the "4 eyed" (not really) mudskipper fish in there Bawphi17 12:54, 3 December 2011 (PST)
- Is it axes or axis of eye rotation? found vestibuloocular reflex journal article referring to eye axes
Media
what is the source of this puffer fish pic, is this an image we can use in the final project? We should cite where it originated if the license allows us to use it. Bawphi17 22:55, 17 November 2011 (PST)
seth's questions and links
Check this out guys this is a great resource- SL [1] can be easily cited
Some things we might want to discuss/ to think about,
1.Why dif. fish have a dif. # of color pigments
2. some fish can see infrared and UV light
3. vision acuity is effected by Water Temp.
4. new rods are constantly being generated in retina ( this occurs only in Fish)
5. Check out Flat Fish , Their eyes move until they are both on the same side of the fish!!!!!!!, some are "left eyed" and some are "right eyed"
6. Fish have dif. properties associated with the left and right eyes, Example: a fish( like some other animals, not primates) needs to see an object with it's left eye or both eyes to know if it has seen it before. ( I.E. possible direct connection from lateral eyes into brain? no cross over? size? function?)
7. Fish have binoccular and monooccular fields of vision
---Seth
philip`s links n stuff
Reference Info
I'm sure more than a few of the resources at http://www.vision-in-cichlids.com/images/references.htm can be looked up on the evergreen state college library website (we have access to a lot of periodicals there) Bawphi17 18:43, 15 November 2011 (PST)
As well, the entire site http://www.vision-in-cichlids.com/ seems helpful in explaining some things that fish are different from us. At least how the Cichlid fish see (these are commonly kept in home aquariums). Visit http://www.vision-in-cichlids.com/cv.htm for the credentials of the creator of the site. Bawphi17 18:43, 15 November 2011 (PST)
Omega Iris
Another common ornamental aquarium fish is the plecostomus (algae eater) Pterygoplichthys pardalis, family loricariidae. They have an "Omega Iris" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loricariidae#Description_and_biology Bawphi17 19:06, 15 November 2011 (PST)
Eyeshine
Many fishes have a tapetum lucidum like nocturnal land animals (cats, raccoons, etc) - this makes their eyes reflect a lot of light especially when filmed with a flash. The purpose of the tapetum lucidum is to sit inside or behind the retina and reflect light through it a second time so that the retina receives the stimulus twice and not just once. Good if you are a fish and live in the darkness of the water. Humans do not have a tapetum lucidum in their eye though red-eye can be confused with that effect. Bawphi17 19:21, 15 November 2011 (PST)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4d7NtVH4bE
This looks like eyeshine in the fish that I own. (large one is 16 inch) Bawphi17 19:55, 15 November 2011 (PST)
Cichlids
Cichlids seem heavily studied... here is an article from the Journal: Nature http://bawnweb.com/m2o/34582751.pdf the gist is that different wavelengths of light available are detected by different fish, fish with different colorations live at different depths. Differences in the gene coding for opsin are to blame. see http://bawnweb.com/m2o/what-you-see-is-how-you-evolve.pdf for explanation of article
special cases http://news.discovery.com/animals/four-eyed-fish-110720.html variations in sensitivity across the retina allow "different spectral sensitivity in different parts of its field of view" in specific fishes. Bawphi17 20:29, 15 November 2011 (PST)
Cornea 1962 dissections: Could be a good source on how knowledge has changed in the last 50 years? http://bawnweb.com/m2o/11.full.pdf - again, from 1962! Bawphi17 22:21, 16 November 2011 (PST)
11/22/2011 Stuff
http://physics.aps.org/story/print/v27/st18 saving this link for use right now Bawphi17 18:36, 22 November 2011 (PST)
Sarah's notes Here is some of the information I found:
- Fish have 83-97 degree field of vision in each eye.
- Fish have a similar color range as humans in spite of it being reflected differently in the water.
- They are nearsighted and can generally see about 5-15 meters with a refractive index of 1.65. This is higher than any other vertibrate.
- Hagfish are the exception in the fish world as their eyes are vestigial.
- Fish differ from humans as they do not have lachrymal glands (tear ducts), yet some have skin extentions that allow for partial coverage of the eye.
- Their eyes also differ from our own as their cornea has a constant thickness and the lens is purely spherical.
- Fish do not have an iris. They use a screening pigment to cover and protect their photoreceptors. It is believed that they have a memory system to allow their eyes to begin adjusting to light at specific times during the day.
- Fish also have rods and cones. They have 3 types of cones in compairison to the 2 humans have.
Some of that stuff seems incorrect, some seems good Bawphi17 13:02, 3 December 2011 (PST)
